Hey Yo Adrianne
Welcome to "Hey Yo Adrianne" - the ultimate business and marketing podcast hosted by yours truly, Adrianne!
I've been through it all, bought the t-shirt (possibly stained with coffee, too), and taken on challenges I never thought I was prepared for. From leaping headfirst into the coffee industry (yes, you read that right!), to steering my branding and marketing company for seven years and counting, my journey has been a rollercoaster, and I'm thrilled to have you ride shotgun with me.
We're ditching the corporate jargon and formalities, folks! It's all about keeping it real, like your best gal pals chatting over lattes. Just me and my squad of industry legends, dishing out the freshest tips, tricks, and strategies to turbocharge your business and marketing game.
So grab your drink of choice (coffee, cocktails, or kombucha), get cozy, and let's transform those dreams into real-deal success! "Hey Yo Adrianne" is here to ignite your entrepreneurial spark and make the journey a blast.
Hey Yo Adrianne
Let's get Legal with Sarah Gilliland
When life hands you a sourdough starter named Jesus, a move across state lines, and building an online business in a digital age, you know you're in for a tale worth sharing. This episode takes you giggling over the quirkiest local pride in Phoenix to the earnest struggle of selling a business and uprooting life. We're joined by a former Texas lawyer turned "Scottsdale"-based business owner, who brings a wealth of experience in navigating professional transformations and helping others avoid the pitfalls of burnout. MEET SARAH GILLILAND!
If you've ever wondered about the integrity of digital legal contracts or the balance between inspiration and imitation, strap in for a robust discussion that promises as much enlightenment as it does entertainment.
Follow Sarah Here
Visit THE LEGAL SHOPPE
Schedule A Consult with Sarah
Follow Adrianne Here
Let's Be Pen Pals
Let's Work Together!
out there. I trust, I trust the I shouldn't trust process. Wait, are you into like the universe retrograde any of that stuff like?
Speaker 2:the fact that it's mercury retrograde and that's why communication and electronics like I don't even get mad anymore, I'm like of course nothing's working why would it instantly when you?
Speaker 1:so I know enough to be like in a conversation, like I could be thrown in it and I'd be quiet. But I know what they're kind of talking about and I do know that Mercury is in retrograde and when we were having the trouble with the Zoom, I didn't want to say it because it's like imagine if you weren't like a star guru girly, and I said, oh, mercury's in retro. I don't know if I could own that Mercury's in retrograde. I don't know if I could own that mercury's in retrograde. It's fine, like imagine if you weren't into it. You'd be like who am I talking to for the next hour? This?
Speaker 2:is. I get even more entertained by that, though, if I say something like that, and then people look at me like I am an idiot. I'm like well, now this is fun.
Speaker 1:So where do we go from here?
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Sebastian, previously known as Jesus.
Speaker 2:As Jesus. What is happening on my computer? Hold on Some weird big purple screen. Okay we're back. Yeah, previously known as Jesus, my kids named it Jesus because it has risen your kids are smart kids, witty. We can't teach that stuff, unfortunately oh shoot, I neglected my relationship with Jesus oh my god, isn't that a lesson within it?
Speaker 1:My goodness.
Speaker 2:So I don't want to offend anybody. I love me some Jesus, but I think Jesus is funny. I think Jesus has a really good sense of humor and I think that he appreciates a sourdough being named after him and he realizes I'm human and sometimes I neglect things.
Speaker 1:I am. So just, I feel like the way that you're describing things makes me know that we're friends. So my Jesus is Italian, he wears a gold chain. He's got like like he's a hot Jesus, but he's got a little chest hair. Um, my Jesus smokes jay every once in a while when, like, things get a little tough out there. You know, like my Jesus gets it. My Jesus cusses a little. My Jesus loves Italian food. My G yeah, that's my Jesus. And I think Jesus loves a charcut board.
Speaker 2:Yes, look at that last separate picture red wine wine. You can't tell me this isn't my person this is my jesus.
Speaker 1:He had a literally charcuterie board table. You know, all these pinterest girlies, all these pinterest girlies um I think they thought they were on to something you're not the. You literally come up with this. Oh my God. Okay, you're funny, let's do it, okay. Well, first of all, thank you so much for just answering my DMS on one random day when I, like, started talking to you on Instagram. Um, I love DM.
Speaker 2:Instagram DM. Best friends are my favorite. Literally my best friend in the world we met in the Instagram DM. It's my favorite.
Speaker 1:I think you can. Just you learn a lot about people in a different way because you see the memes they post or like the things that they think are funny and over time, like I'll like be watching someone's stories and it's kind of like the whole sales trick. Like you see something seven times and then people make the purchase. It's like if I see someone post something like witty and funny seven times, I'm like we're supposed to be friends. Oh my, okay. So on that note. So you're from. Do you say Phoenix or do you say Scottsdale? Where do you prefer in the area to be from?
Speaker 2:It depends on how bougie I want to come across. So if I'm like feeling super bougie, I'll be like Scottsdale, but if I literally just want somebody to geographically understand where I'm from, I'll say Phoenix, because people don't know that Scottsdale and Phoenix are together.
Speaker 1:Right, right, when I first moved to Scottsdale when lived there I was I didn't want to go to Phoenix. I was like, oh, phoenix and there's no I I think I went there one time and the year I lived in Scottsdale I went to Phoenix one time. I just like stayed in my little zip code. I was like where do I need to go besides the airport? Like there's nothing here for me. Everything I need is in Scottsdale.
Speaker 2:We've been here since 2018. And when we moved here, we took like seven or eight trips here to figure out like, where do we want to be, where do we vibe, where do we want the kids in school? And it was very confusing because everyone here is so patriotic to their part of town and so whoever you talk to, every other part of town is the worst case scenario, and now I'm the same.
Speaker 1:Why do you think that is? Why is there so much loyalty?
Speaker 2:I don't know. And it's ridiculous because in my mind I live in North Scottsdale, I live in Biltmore, which is like Biltmore's, like 45 minutes away from me, but it's still in Scottsdale, I think. I think it's technically still in Scottsdale, like fashion square. I'll say like that whole Camelback area, it's still technically Scottsdale, like fashion square. I'll say like that whole Camelback area, it's still technically Scottsdale and I'm like, oh yeah, I'll swing by there, no problem. But then if somebody asked me to go to Glendale, you can get effed.
Speaker 1:No, nice, try the same distance.
Speaker 2:It's the same other way. Yeah's a way. Somebody asked me to go to Chandler or Gilbert. It better be for a really good reason. You better be a high you talk to people from yeah, you can't talk to people from that part of town and they're like I don't want to have to go to Scottsdale. I'm like it's the perfect part of town that's literally the nicest.
Speaker 1:Oh my god. It's so true, though, like I have. You know, all of my friends live in different parts of the metro whole area and each one will equally have their like, and it will always be a comment. It's never no, come here, it's oh, scottsdale or like whatever the name of the town is as the reference and like just that. That, that sound of disgust um how long have you guys officially been in scottsdale?
Speaker 2:we're gonna go with that. So we're going on six years. Maybe we're going on seven. We moved here in 2018 nice again, I'm. I do words, not numbers. So how many years? Is that six, okay, yeah, so we're going on six years. How we moved from north texas, so we were in the dallas fort worth area and then came here in 2018 what?
Speaker 1:What sparked the move? What was the reason why you guys moved from Texas Scottsdale?
Speaker 2:So the true spark, like on paper, is my husband's company. He's in um big construction like highways, bridges, roads, industrial buildings, and he had an opportunity to take a promotion here. So they were doing work in Texas and had but were based here in Phoenix and he had an opportunity to take that promotion.
Speaker 2:I had sold my business two years prior to our move, so about a year prior to us talking about, talking about moving, looking into it, and a year after the sale I still wasn't quite like moonwalking out of the operations the way I expected. So, as sales typically go, but to everybody's chagrin, is you get the most money when you sell a business and you do an earn out. So, like you, you, you buy yourself a job, you sell your business, but you stay on in whatever capacity to kind of help the transition and keep the client base still in there. But by the expectations I had set with my team, it was like there was this kind of unsaid thing that, yeah, the owner changed, but we're not taking your name off the door and we want to see you all day, every day, here and you're like this isn't really what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:This isn't really what I was going for. So a halfway across the country move kind of helped it was. It was kind of a perfect, um perfect situation for that are you from Texas originally or where are you guys? From. I was raised in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1:I was raised in Oklahoma.
Speaker 2:My husband and I were both raised in Oklahoma. I was in Tulsa, he was in Edmond, which is a suburb of Oklahoma City. We were college sweethearts at Oklahoma State oh, cowboy or wait. What are they? What are they? Yeah, cowboys, cowboys, go pokes. Yeah, which Oklahoma State did beat ASU the other day, I say the other day.
Speaker 1:This summer we were, or whatever recently we went, they were here in Arizona playing yeah, um, it was hot.
Speaker 2:So I say summer, it was like October. Um, oklahoma State came here and played the Sun Devils and won and that was kind of cool, feels good. Um, but yeah, we were college sweethearts, immediately after graduation moved to north texas, never looked back and just the culture I mean you know the, the culture of the south and the midwest is like you don't leave where you're from how dare you?
Speaker 2:we were wild to be leaving oklahoma and going two hours away north tex, texas yeah, no rebels oh my gosh, you badass, bitch, yeah, had our kids in Texas and lived our whole adult lives in North Texas and then, with that opportunity, came here and have not looked back and again now we're the crazy people again, because who leaves Texas right? The greatest country for real, though?
Speaker 1:I do love the spirit there, their loyalty, that's some, I mean. And also, too, when everyone was moving out of California in 2020, they were going to either Arizona or Texas, so you guys have like the two best places yeah, it's, it's true, but we have felt more at home, have built deeper relationships than in six years here, than we did 13 years in Texas oh my gosh, why do you think that?
Speaker 2:is we love it here um, I think, since Arizona is a transplanted state like there are not, I mean, there's plenty of people that were born here, but the first question people ask is like oh, where are you from? They just assume you're not from here. It is a transplant state. I think people are much more open to different backgrounds and different points of view, and that's not a make or break of a friendship, of if you've lived a different life, have had a different experience and look at life a different way. It's just kind of expected. Here we're in Texas. There's one way to believe, there's one way to think, and if you don't, you're wrong.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:Oklahoma is kind of the same so.
Speaker 1:Nebraska and Kansas is kind of same too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're just like swinging up the map.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I totally agree with that statement that Scott Phoenix was the first place that I ever really moved away from home. Like in college and out of college I lived like an hour from where I was from and that was like the first time that I'd ever was like I live somewhere different. But I love that everyone was always like where are you from? But I kept meeting people from the Midwest, like everybody that I was meeting was from Chicago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we did this.
Speaker 1:We made it Um. So yeah, I, I loved it there. How long did it take you? I mean, you kind of had COVID in the middle of these last six years. Did that affect like meeting new friends and things like that, or do you feel like you were in the groove and settled a couple of years in?
Speaker 2:We were mostly in the groove. It was still very, very hard on my kids, my older one in particular because like he was in fifth grade when we moved here so he was like really settled into some good friendships so we totally ruined his life when we first moved here and then he was like just getting in the groove when COVID hit and that was rough it was like on his mental health on.
Speaker 2:That was not a good time. But, um, we had made some really awesome friends in our neighborhood and we had like some solid friendships there. Right at the beginning of the covid it's. It's inconsequential, but some things happened that we moved to neighborhoods and it was kind of clutch because we're on this cul-de-sac of just like amazing people that were like, instead of it being sprawled out like all of our friends were like boom boom, boom, boom, like right on one cul-de-sac and it was. I think that was really good for everybody. Um, and then at the end of COVID, things fell in place that we moved back to our original neighborhood where all of our original friends were. So it was, we had exactly what we needed in some really amazing friendships, exactly how we needed them at the time.
Speaker 1:You got lucky Also it was really, yeah, that kind of makes me think you know housing prices are just out of control right now, but do you feel like there is a price tag or a number or value? If you are getting a house and you find out that five of your neighbors are like so fucking cool, like do you think you would pay? Like you'd be like well guys, listen, we don't have serial killers, we know for sure in our neighborhood. And all these people like to have a good time and go to Mastro's on a group dinner every month. Like would you pay extra for that?
Speaker 1:Knowing that you're like yeah, that's real estate baby, oh my God.
Speaker 2:And it's we choose to rent Like I don't. It's, it's what works for us. I know there's plenty of people in real estate. They're like well, let me show you the numbers, I don't care.
Speaker 1:There is a price on peace of mind. And.
Speaker 2:I'm loving the fact that if, when our kids are grown, in a few years, if we want to move to Italy, we don't have to like figure out what the market's doing and when something breaks, I can get on an app Like it's love, that it's the easy life for us to rent and it's. I owned a title company. I know real estate, I know the numbers. I don't care.
Speaker 1:I actually love that comment. I do not own, I rent, Um, and I think I'm 34 right now and I have been going through like the last 10 years I really feel like where friends are buying houses or buying condos or moving and all of those things and I was moving. So I was like I'm not going to buy something when I know I'm not going to like live in LA forever or whatever. But I also was like I'm not educated about this, I just am saying this to put it off. And then Grant Cardone I found out he rents and I'm like, well, if it's good enough for him, renting is good enough for me too.
Speaker 2:He's all right with it. It's one of those things that it's like the american dream. It's part of that american dream definition, and if you hit the high points of those things that are the american dream and say why it doesn't work for you, it's like instant shame. Let's tell you why you're wrong. You have to fit in this box. There's no reason, and I'm like I have no obligation to make sense to you, like.
Speaker 1:I have, I love that.
Speaker 2:I am a pretty fricking smart grown ass adult and I have thought this through and my husband we have together. He's super smart. We have thought this through intelligently and have made a decision that works for us. We are under no obligation to make sense to anybody else, right, right.
Speaker 1:I love that confidence. Have you always had that confidence about decisions that you make, or?
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, cockiness, love that. I think I I'm a fighter and, um, you know, I don't like go picking bikes on the street or anything crazy, but I'm not like in some underground fight club.
Speaker 2:But but it's like I'm not. Um, yeah, yeah, I would say I do like as a business owner, and you know, I guess that's like I'm not. Yeah, yeah, I would say I do as a business owner and I guess that's probably a safe segue into business ownership and everything it does to us. Of course, I spiral and are like what have I done? Is this even going to work? We do that to ourselves, so it's not 24-7. But for the most part, I'm like I think things through, I evaluate things, I have my process for making decisions. Sometimes they're wild and crazy and seem very spontaneous, but like it works out or it doesn't, and then we keep moving along. I try not to put too much pressure on it also. So right, I'll, I make a decision and I will confidently defend it. Um, but not in a defensive way, not in a like. Well, let me prove to this rando that what I did for my life is right.
Speaker 2:Who cares?
Speaker 1:Right, right, oh, my God, okay. So on that note, I want to go back to you. Know, you had your practice in Texas. You sold it, you guys moved to Phoenix. Talk to me about, like professional wise, you've owned multiple businesses. What did you do next?
Speaker 2:Uh, I was never going to be a lawyer again. Why, what?
Speaker 1:happened, or like why did you I?
Speaker 2:had really burnt myself out round one and looking back, I was not conscious of it at the time but looking back I think I doubted my value, I doubted my success and my role in it. I had a business partner and we had. I was like he was very much like the relationship sales guy and I was the operations person and I think I was not confident about my contribution and my value. And so working around the clock was how I proved to I don't know who that I belonged, doing what I was doing and like it's definitely a reflection thing. At the time I was just like to do all this. Um, I couldn't disappoint anybody, I couldn't tell anybody no, I, you know. And so I really burnt myself out and I kind of defined that that being a lawyer means working around the clock and we're taught that in law school. They're like plan on working 80 hours a week. It's very, you know, watch suits.
Speaker 1:Stop. I just restarted suits. I'm on season one.
Speaker 2:I have not seen it and I'm very disappointed in myself. So I need to um all the shows like it's all about how hard they work, how their life is their business.
Speaker 2:and so I was like, well, I guess, if that's it, I don't, I don't want it anymore, right? Um, and I started coaching executives and business owners, like CEOs, on how to keep their role and not burn themselves out. Oh, and it took like two whole years of that that I was like, wait a minute, I wonder if I like took my own advice or something weird like that. Weird Yep. And I was like what if I like completely turn this on its head? What if I do it my way? What if I'm billing flat fees and not counting minutes to bill hours? What if I have relationships first with my clients and then happen to do legal work for them as well? And just completely turned it on its head and it worked.
Speaker 1:And was there like an aha moment? Because, okay, a lot of people that are listening to this are like, if they're clients of mine, they are in service based industries where, like, they're trading time for money all the time. Even my business is a lot of times like that. Was there a moment where you were like I need to like flip the script, like what had happened that made you say like I need to do it my way and change that structure.
Speaker 2:I think it was in dabbling with the idea of starting a practice again that I was like okay, anything but that. And so I had to kind of dissect it, Like what was it Okay? Well, my first firm, our brilliant marketing scheme, was that we had an attorney hotline and we had a separate phone that we advertise an attorney would be available 24 seven. Just give us a call. Do you know what people do when you tell them they can call you 24 seven? Do they call you 24 seven? Do they call?
Speaker 2:you 24 seven at 3 AM and we weren't like divorce lawyers. We weren't like there weren't real emergencies on the other side. We were real estate lawyers.
Speaker 1:Go to bed, people like, were they just so stressed out that it was keeping them up at night? And they're like oh, 24, seven Like wow, a lot of it was real.
Speaker 2:So it was realtors. So like a realtors up in the middle of the night worried about their transaction and they're like oh yeah, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:And so I took like all these things that we did and I'm like, well, that was dumb, I don't, I don't want anybody calling me at 3 AM, how do I do that? And then I was kind of starting to hear in the legal community people complain about how much it sucks that the better we get at our job and the more effective we get at our job just means we have to do more work to keep earning the money. And I'm like, well, that's dumb. Why would I financially punish myself at being really efficient If, if you know this document would normally cost somebody a thousand dollars? You know you're going to go to an attorney and by the time you meet with them and talk to their paralegal and do another meeting and do this, you've paid a thousand dollars for it. If I've come up with systems to be really effective and efficient with getting that knocked out, why am I financially punished for that? And I get paid for one hour instead of the three that this other attorney claims that they spent on it.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, and clients are always mad. You know potential clients then coming to me and being like well, I just hate, I never know what I'm going to pay. You know the hour the attorney tells me well, their hourly rates $400 an hour. Well, what does that mean? Like how, that means nothing to me. How many hours are you going to spend? So I'm like, okay, I can marry those two things. I can say the value of this end product is a thousand dollars. It's none of your concern how much time it did or didn't take me. You have predictability. I get paid for value, not time, and everybody's happy.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah. So what was your first move then? Knowing like, okay, these are my non-negotiables, this is kind of like how I want this system to work. Did you then kind of go into an of what do people need?
Speaker 2:And I think that's a really big problem, particularly for women in business. I don't want to just shame us, but we want to help. Like if you say, why did you go into this business? You went into it's well, I wanted to help these people with this problem and it's this give, give, give. And I want to really challenge women in business to get a little selfish with it. What do you love about doing the work you do? You get to love it. You should love it. If you do not love it and the only reason you're doing your work is because it's this charitable giving like fricking. Stop it, Stop.
Speaker 1:Okay, what do you do? What do you do? And so I got selfish with it.
Speaker 2:I was like I don't want to. I don't want to talk about another real estate contract with anybody. I don't want to be available to somebody. So I went through what I didn't want. I'm like, okay, what are the most fun things? What is it? What are the client calls that? When they call me and they're like, hey, can we talk about this? I'm like this is fun, let's dive into it. What do I love? And I love growing businesses. It's not some charitable. Oh, I just want to help people grow their business. Yeah, sure, why not? But I get, that's fun for me. I would start a new business every five minutes if I could. That much to my husband.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:But that business startup process, that creative process, is so fun for me. It's like an artist painting a picture, like that's so fun. So I'm like, let me do that. So when people are building their business, they need trademarks, they need strategy. Yeah, they need contracts. But a lot of that strategy planning, like how are you going to serve people? What services are you going to offer? What do you want to say no to? A lot of it is kind of like this coaching thing. Then we put that into a contract, like the contract just happens to be the end vessel, but it's fun. So I'm like oh, I like that, I'll offer those things. What's the value of that? Not how long does it take me, not like what's my hourly rate, but what at the end of the day, from start to finish? What would a client expect to go to any other law firm and their bill to be at the end of the day with all this? That's the flat fee.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's dive in to that. When you were coming up with your I mean, obviously you'd owned a practice before, so you knew what like pricing was. I think that that's something that a lot of business owners struggle with is teetering between the well, I, you know, I don't want to live in a scarcity mindset, but I want to make sure that I have clients that are, you know, buying my product or service, so I'm going to charge lower. Or, you know, there's people who have done the work and they're like no, this is my worth. And then now they're stuck figuring out but how can I make sure that?
Speaker 2:there's enough value to support this ticket that I just yeah.
Speaker 1:How did you go through that process of deciding what it was worth and the value that you would be adding to it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I think I started a little low. I have done, in three years that this firm has existed, I've done a couple of price bumps not dramatic, but I did. I had been at that point, I had been an attorney for 12 years so I had a good idea Like what conversations do we need to have? How long will those take? Ultimately, I kind of back into hours a little bit and then there were some things that I did underestimate. I'm like you know, really to do a good job, we need to spend more time here. So, yeah, this flat fee is going to have to bump for the next person.
Speaker 2:So I've done a little bit of bumps, but I don't time track. It's more like a you know about what went into that. That was a lot more than I thought, right, Right and it's. And then it's also really important and I've gotten really good about setting boundaries, not letting clients just call me to talk my ear off, like I'm not your therapist, I'm not like I just work here until I've gotten good and it's. I'm not weird about it. I'm not like this isn't an appropriate phone call. That's awkward, right, but I'll be like hey, yeah, I hear you. That is such a challenging thing, but you know I'm not your girl for that. So let's, like you go talk to this person, work through it, or I know it's where I want to make relationships, like meeting friends on Instagram, dm that do other things. You know, if somebody saying, hey, you know they call me to talk about their contract, but really they've got a sales and marketing problem.
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, I hear you, so here's some things we can put in contracts, but that doesn't sound like it's actually your problem. You've got you've got an SEO problem, like we can file your trademark all day long, but this other person competing with your name isn't actually why you're not getting sales Right. Yes, let's legally protect you, but let me get with this person so that you're landing at the top of Google. If your problem is this knockup knockoff of your brand has your competitor that has knocked off your brand but has them hitting the top of Google, your trademark's not going to stop that. So, yes, let's legally protect you and do that. And also, let me get you with this SEO person. Let me get you with this marketing person. Let's get your sales so off the charts that somebody knocking off your brand is kind of irrelevant to you also.
Speaker 1:Right. Well, and if it does become like an issue, you're bringing in the sales you can be able to pay for, you know, lawyer fees and keep going where nothing is worse than I've had an issue with another company that had the same name, not in my marketing business, in our coffee business, and that's what it came down to is we were like I'll fight this all fricking day, like I've got sales coming in, like I will not stop. And you know, covid happened and they had a brick and mortar and we had an online business and who do you think was still in business? Like we still had sales coming in because we were worrying about those things, which I am not saying oh my God, I know what you're talking about. I think that just naturally happened that way, cause.
Speaker 2:I was like we got to bring sales. No, you make a really great point. It's like it doesn't make the legal aspect irrelevant. It's very, very important. But the just shit of it is the law is set up to be expensive. Lawyers have done a really great job of making sure people can only protect what's rightfully theirs by spending a shit ton of money. It sucks. That's why I do legal protections, not litigation, because I hate that aspect of our legal system. It's what it is Right, right and bottom line it's who can outspend each other if somebody is just completely stonewalling? So it's like it doesn't mean you don't do anything with the legal processes but you can't legally defend a broke business.
Speaker 1:Right, right, okay. So at what point did you decide, all right, I have my value, I have my services, I have the type of clients I want to work with. When did digital products and like your online store come into the mix? And I am so excited to hear you talk about this, because I'm definitely late to the game on this stuff, so to just hear someone else's process is so valuable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. First caveat I want to give because this pisses me off, is when people will say, oh, we'll just create a course, we'll just create a digital product, like you're going to do this shit in your sleep, in two hours?
Speaker 1:Oh, I didn't even think about that.
Speaker 2:A lot of work. It has taken two years for me to get my digital product platform where it's worth what I charge for these products. Like it is, it's a lot of work, and so I'll hear these experts in various fields be like you know I wish I could have more. You know side income and you know that whole make money while you sleep. I wish I had more of that that. You know residual income coming in that doesn't require me to trade my time for money. And people are like like oh, just create a course. It's like it's not freaking easy.
Speaker 1:Like so let me just get really clear on that and I think, too, those people that are saying it. I don't know if you've done this, but I'm the type of person where, if like building a course, I will buy everyone else's course, because I want to consume it. To be like what? What do I like? What do I not like? What do I want? Mine, this is it. I thought this was a lot harder or it needed to be different, but also I'm very underwhelmed. That's what I experienced, buying a lot of courses.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's, there's a lot of market research to be done, but then, yeah, they tend to be underwhelming. And but even the underwhelming ones like how to put together in technology and the technology for just delivery is expensive, like there's just a lot that goes into it. No, I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it, but if you tell yourself this, like if you watch the Instagram influencers that are giving getting a kickback from Kajabi, which Kajabi is one of the like course delivery platforms, of course they're going to be like just create a course. It took me five hours. No, it didn't. It's hard. That said, if you do it right and it is continuing to make income over time, it's worth all that effort it takes. But I think a lot of people either under deliver because they're like I need to get this thing out there and I didn't realize it was going to take me months, so I'm just going to get something out there. But that said, okay, so my digital products that I decided one day to do and then I spit it out in two hours. No, I didn't spit it out in two years. I had so the whole time. I was never going to be a lawyer again.
Speaker 2:I was still out networking. I wanted to meet people in Arizona. I wanted to meet adults and not all my friends, just be like my kids, friends, parents, and so I started networking. There's a the very first group I started going to is a women's networking group here in the Phoenix, scottsdale area called the Foundress group here in the phoenix, scottsdale area called the foundress. Um, if anybody across like people like, oh, the foundress. But then if anybody across the world that comes here for it have heard of junk in the trunk vintage market, it is the owners of junk in the trunk that started this women's networking group and it was very much them. Their names are are Coley and Lindsay and they just saw a need for women in business, women business owners to a lot of small business owners to just get together and support each other.
Speaker 2:And I think it's like 200 strong now. And when I say that it's not like members, that like every now and then they come to something like they book out those monthly meetings, like the room is full, and so that was the very first thing I went to. It was kind of just asking around and somebody was like, oh, this organization has their lunch party today and I just went, I knew nobody and I felt so welcomed. Um, and then still getting like involved with the local chamber. And then, over COVID, there was this random group of women that would just have zoom calls. And there's another organization called no women that I've recently gotten involved with and knobbo, and it's just so. They're all women's groups. It's not like I'm not mad at men. I'll take them in for clients.
Speaker 1:I have plenty of them.
Speaker 2:But there is one that isn't women, that's co-ed called Scottsdale Living and it's just an amazing group of business owners, and so I've just been going to these things and what I kept hearing, especially these small business owners in these groups. They were like listen, I can't afford an attorney right now, like I'm brand new, but I know I need to have contracts. I bought this thing online I won't drop names, but we all know the typical online platforms. So I bought like a 1099 agreement online and it spit out this like 20 pages and I have no idea what it says and so many people saying what would you charge just to look at this for me and I'm like, well, frankly, more than drafting it from scratch, like 20 pages is a lot to read and play. Where's Waldo on what right, where the problems are, and then translate it into something that you understand.
Speaker 2:And it was constant. It was just really constant of people saying I can't, like I can afford half of a contract from you, but I need something. And I'm like, okay, these are the same dozen contracts everybody's asking for. It's the same problem. If they need it to be understandable not 20 page like, give me like a two to three pager that will cover what my business needs covered until I can afford to customize something. And so I'm like, okay, this, I can't just like hear the same problem over and over again. And so that's what I created.
Speaker 2:I was like, okay, we're taking these standard contracts that I've used for my business clients forever. Let me translate them three times over. And then let me let my teenager read them and say do you read this and understand what's expected of both the people here? Let's make it a win-win, not like a oh, these are small business owners with their first client. They're not going to shove some like screw them over contract in front of them. So let's make it truly like a win-win and short and sweet. And it's not 25 bucks like you can get online. It's not 50 bucks Like you can get online. These are three to $400 contracts on my digital shop, but it is. It's what they were asking for. It's half my price or less, and it's something that they feel really confident to use, and I even added video tutorials on here's how to customize this thing for your business. Here's how you can use this, not just like shove it in front of somebody and sign it and everybody's loving it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my gosh, how many products total do you have? Now, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's a great problem to have, I guess about 20, maybe I could be over estimating that, maybe it's like 50. I don't know what's your best seller or sellers by far the 1099 contractor agreement and, close second to that, the various package of coaching contracts. So I have, you know, one-on-one coaching agreement, a group coaching agreement, a retreat participation agreement, and then I have them bundled and packaged and those are huge sellers because it seems like the coaching world they're really onto it, like hey, we're going to protect our stuff legally but there really isn't. Like you can't get on legal zoom or rocket or Rocket Lawyer and find a coaching.
Speaker 2:I don't think I don't want to like accuse them of that. Maybe they've come up to date, but I've never like the feedback I was getting is there wasn't even anything out there for that when it comes to coaching clients, group coaching clients, even retreats what are the things that you love coaching your clients about, or with or through?
Speaker 2:Intellectual property protection is huge. That's one thing that's also really rampant in the coaching industry, especially business coaches is their clients. It's kind of like business coaches is their clients. It's kind of like business coaches coaching business coaches. It is clients, whether they think that they should or can or not. It's really bad that their clients will just take their whole program and resell it with their name on it.
Speaker 1:There has been so many instances. So back up a little bit which. You know these people well, I don't know if you know them. If you know this person personally, we need to talk. I, dean Graziosi, who lives in Scottsdale. Okay, on Scottsdale road, down by um, where's the place where you can get the breakfast buzz? Um, delish everywhere, what the delish? A little smoothie, like juice place, okay. So it's on Scottsdale road, go past a couple strip clubs, keep going and there is a building. There's a building on the north east side of the road. It's big, it's white and it's mastermindcom and then there's also a salon there. So dean graziosi is the guy and his wife, lisa. She has the salon, but he's in like the whole personal development industry, but he's homies with Tony Robbins and they.
Speaker 1:They did all of that big like right before COVID. I mean, I drink the Kool-Aid, I like, say it Like I don't know. I bought the course, I was like I want to be them, um, but the one thing that I. So I was taking those courses and at the same time as the self-learning industry started blowing up, I started watching all of these other business coaches. You know, get on Instagram or whatever, and like do their pitch and start talking. And I'm like we took the same course, like you're. You're using something, you're ripping it off, right. You're using something, you're ripping it off right. And to me I'm like, yeah, I know the hook story close method of telling a story and getting a sale works. But when I hear someone else say hook story close, I'm like you, just like you took the Tony Robbins class, like hello, fellow alum, um. And to me it makes me have the ick and I'm like I never want someone to feel that way If they're consuming my content, being like she ripped that off of whoever.
Speaker 2:When I saw like similar is I, when I decided which I failed to give this plug, I forgot about it until just now when I was like I want to do this completely differently. I took Marie Forleo's course Cause I'm like, okay, her people are my clients. What if I built a law practice in this super untraditional way? But that's similar to how my clients would do their business, so I loved her course. But then that's where you then just see coach after coach after coach, using Marie.
Speaker 2:Forleo language and teaching identical stuff, and I'm like okay, it's one thing, both ethically and legally and functionally. It's one thing to learn from someone and take what you learned and turn it into your own thing and put your personality and your creativity in it. But the inspiration, obviously you wouldn't even be there if you hadn't learned something. Right, right, that's what everybody should do.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:But ripping somebody else's stuff off is completely different. Using the same language, just rinse and repeating it, when you don't have your own success stories, your own methodologies into it, you're just like, oh, I learned this, let me reteach it. You don't know it Right. Learning and knowing are different things, and so that's definitely with coaches and the contracts that I put together for them. We are having a lot of talk around, yes, how to contract their intellectual property protection, but also, what do you need to say? What do you need to do? Let's just assume they're not actually reading this contract, even though they should. How, in practice, what are the things that you should do to make it clear they are not welcome to rip off what you're teaching them. You're teaching them methodologies, not you're not giving them a business in a box.
Speaker 2:And you know even some of my best clients horror stories. There's another business coach that happens to be an attorney that, like, quit practicing law and went to business coaching, and I knew somebody that had taken one of her courses. Now, I don't know, like I don't know the details of the course or service, but somehow this person got their hands on her contract and we're like she's an attorney and a business coach, her contract has to be good, right? Well, the contract gave away all of the intellectual property. Now, I don't know, maybe maybe this coach, I don't know why she had that contract. Maybe she had a done for you program that she was giving away the intellectual property to something. But when it was reused for the wrong purpose, and then this coach was like wait, my client is like totally ripping off my brand, what can I do? And I'm like well, let me see the contract you used. I'm like you sold it to her like you oh my god, wow, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so I think that's a misunderstanding in the industry is like oh well, this is from this person, it must be good. Well, good for what? You don't know what service they were using it for. You don't know their intention, so right. Does it match what yours is right?
Speaker 1:okay, I want to make sure we get into this. So you just mentioned three years into your new practice. Now, right at what point in like from day one to yesterday, when you made a really big announcement, did you decide I'm ready for a rebrand? Like? I want to know the like, the time that it took before yesterday when you made that announcement so the time?
Speaker 2:probably about three months. Okay, like I do some things the Vegas wedding style no, I love that. I still trust my decisions. It was a really dumb reason, though, and I want I say that not, I'm not shaming myself. I love my dumb reason, but I want to be clear that, like you don't have to have this like amazing altruistic reason to do things. You are under no obligation to make sense to anybody else. That's like the theme of this podcast.
Speaker 2:So the reason was I didn't think I needed a rebrand. I had no problem with my brand, and if anybody had asked me four months ago, how do you want to grow your law firm, I would have said I don't. I'm very happy with it. As me, the solo attorney, I have my small team. We can take care of one client at a time. I don't need anything different. I'm going to grow my digital products. I'm content I didn't. I wasn't upset with my brand.
Speaker 2:And I think that's where a lot of people in your position like when you're talking to potential clients, they're like well, I don't have a problem with my brand? They probably don't. The silly reason was so my last name is Gilliland. People have a hard time saying that and I would meet if that was the name of my firm. I'd meet people and our whole conversation would be how you pronounce my name and who freaking cares? Like that's the least interesting thing we could talk about. So it like I'm not naming my firm the gilliland law firm because our whole freaking thing will be how you say my name, who cares? Say whatever you want. Um, then I just did my initials. Then sdg can't figure it out, nobody can figure it out. So I'm like the sdg law firm, the, what, the we, f? What? What does that mean? What? Now we're having the same stupid conversation I don't want to have Right. Right, it was purely the rebrand started with.
Speaker 2:I was annoyed with my name or how people perceived my name or initials and so I went to a friend of mine that also does branding and I'm like listen, in Arizona you're allowed to have a trade name for a law firm. Other states you can't Like the whole time I was I think Texas has changed it recently, but the whole time I practiced in Texas you could only have a law firm named after yourself, or I think maybe there was an exception for like geographic area you can be the. Dallas law firm. But you couldn't like get creative?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, you can get creative, you can call it whatever you want.
Speaker 2:And I was like, okay, we got to name this thing because I'm getting annoyed with people not saying my name.
Speaker 2:And then it turned into because, as you know, I'm sure when you're working with your clients you're not just like what name do you want, you're like what is what flavor of ice cream, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're going through all of these practices and it then gave me this vision for a business that I never had because it was boring to me. The name was annoying, the business wasn't boring, I was having fun with my clients, but I didn't have a vision for it having a life of its own because that was irrelevant to me. And then when I go through this branding process, where it's like it has a vibe and it has this really cool name and the name exemplifies what I want for all of my clients, now I'm not like in this whole mindset shifted in the branding process of I don't just want one-off client at a time, I want everybody and I want the cool lawyers to come work with me and I want, like I would love to have a building with this name on it, like it now has a life that I want to nurture, but it just didn't have before.
Speaker 1:Wow, that had to be such a exhilarating process and feeling from going from like no, like I don't care about that, like this is where I want my business to go to, like that name just kind of sparked this whole other dream and idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean, I'm sure, the rest of the process, but it was like the whole branding process gave it a life. That. I didn't think was a problem. I wasn't like oh, this is a problem for me. I was content. But then it gave it a life I didn't even know it could have.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. So you made the announcement yesterday. What is your 2024? And I know that's you're not like a we plan our, our days and our weeks and our years beyond. But for the topic of new year's conversation, where are you going in 2024? What are you doing with this? What kind of life are you giving your brand and how are you going to do that?
Speaker 2:So it's, I have to be very intentional not to neglect. The legal shop is our digital platform and I still want to help as many people, as many new businesses that cannot afford the attorney yet I still really want to build that. So I don't want to like get so excited with this that I neglect that. So I'm being intentional with my time dedication there, um, but I want to kind of I think I was a little bit under a social media rock. I wasn't, I just didn't get around to it. It's not like I'm afraid of it.
Speaker 2:I had somebody recently be like oh, I know you hate social media. I'm like, no, I don't, that's okay. Well, if that's the vibe, so I'm like okay, when I meet people in person, they're like excited. They're like, oh, you know, your kind of law practice exists. So I think I really want to get intentional with social media, just because it's a natural place to be like hey, this exists and here's how I can help you and here's, here's what you need to protect your business before it's a problem for you. And so getting loud with that messaging, having conversations like this being on social media, I think that's the start, yeah, and then like see where it goes.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh, gosh. I love all of this. I'm so excited for all of this, for you. Even just watching your journey over the last few months when we started talking, you have opened up a whole new world for me as a business owner, and I'm sure you've realized that through, like, doing all of your own market research, like a lot of us, like business owners out here, we don't know that legal jargon like Like that's not why we got into this business, and it can be very intimidating, and I feel like I watch your content and I always learn so much. Um, and I appreciate that because, yeah, it's just, it's intentional, it's valuable. You're really fricking funny and that doesn't. Are you good, easy on the eyes? And that doesn't. Are you good, easy on the eyes? And that doesn't hurt either.
Speaker 1:Um, I appreciate you so much for saying all that yeah, well, and I mean it too, and next time I'm in scottsdale, um, we're gonna have to meet for a cocktail or a foundress event or something and get together yeah, okay, can you pimp yourself out? Tell everyone that I can find you all the goods.
Speaker 2:Yes. So, like, my main hub of communication is definitely Instagram at the lawyer Sarah, with an H cause, that's who I am and kind of everything flows from there. So my bio link and Instagram takes you to all of the projects that I work on. So Instagram at the lawyer Sarah, tik TOK at the legal shop, instagram at the legal shop and risingbrandlegalcom, and that everywhere I am.
Speaker 1:That's perfect.
Speaker 2:I'm going to add.
Speaker 1:Dale and Scott, not Phoenix Scottsdale that's going to probably be like the name of the episode not Phoenix Scottsdale. Um, I'm going to link all of your information in the show notes too, that way everyone can go and find it. But thank you so much for your time and I'm excited for like working with all of our technology stuff. Oh, my gosh. No, you're fine, that's it.
Speaker 2:Literally Mercury's in the microwave. We can't help it.
Speaker 1:Now I'm going to be sending you that stuff. Uh, now that I know that it's a safe space, to save it.